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CHNetwork Online Community Forums Church, Tradition and Magisterium Why is the Catholic church so legalistic?

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8 replies, 8 voices Last updated by Profile photo of joybells joybells 1 week, 2 days ago
Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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  • #22410
    Profile photo of Chance White
    chancew
    Participant
    @chancew

    After speaking with a local priest yesterday, he detailed the road I would have to follow if I wished to become Catholic, and it is a long and tedious one by the sound of it.  The thief on the cross had only to ask Jesus and he was instantly in Christ, and by extension his church.  In Acts 8:36, the eunuch asked what hindered him from being baptized.

     

    So why does the Catholic church have so many forms, classes, and hoops through which one must jump in order to join the body when that is not the pattern we see in scripture?

    #22412
    Profile photo of Larry D. Mihm
    Larry D. Mihm
    Participant
    @Lastdazeman

    My knee-jerk reaction would be to say the Catholic Church is not so legalistic but people within the Catholic Church can be legalistic. You talked to the wrong priest. When I started the process leading up to Easter Vigil I no longer considered myself non-Catholic. I considered myself a Catholic as soon as I made the decision to be Catholic. If I filled out a form which asked my religious preference I would check Catholic. We also say everybody is Catholic, they just don’t know it yet.

    There are many personalities in the Catholic Church, just like everywhere else, and some of those personalities (Myers-Briggs) are sticklers for details, others fly by the seat of their pants. Talk to one in the first group and you’ll find yourself filling out forms and following formulas. Talk to one in the second group and you’ll find yourself partying with the Saints. All those personality types have left their marks on the Church and I read somewhere it might be unfortunate there were such long periods in the Church when meticulous types dominated.

    #22415
    Profile photo of Dedric T
    dedrict
    Participant
    @DedricT

    Compared to the typical non-denominational church, where we walked through the door and simply called ourselves “members”, yes, there is a longer process to becoming Catholic.

    But, it makes sense.  In the early Church, there was teaching, scrutiny and discernment before someone was confirmed to be a follower of Christ.  I can’t recall the verses, but there is a reference to this.  Now, that was in the early Church, where communities of believers, and people in general, were much smaller.  It is likely people knew each other more often than we do today.  Yet, there was a process, even if less formal.  There was also the risk of being infiltrated by people seeking to destroy the Church, so as a matter of preserving the early Church and meeting places, this was necessary for safety reasons as well.

    The Church’s processes have evolved over the centuries as civilization and its structures have grown.  Most parishes serve hundreds, if not thousands of families.  There has to be a process by which a person is taught the faith, scrutinized to know their history in how it fits with Christ’s teachings (marriage, divorce, etc), and queried to be sure we know what we are doing.  Becoming Catholic isn’t like joining a local club or organization.  The Sacrament of baptism is a seal and covenant with God, as is confirmation.  We enter into a spiritual promise with the God of all creation, and our Lord and Savior – it isn’t something to simply walk into and say “yes, I believe!”.  Christ gave us a simple path, but he tasked the Church with ensuring that path was protected, and maintained so that those who walk it will not be led astray.

    It took two months for me to get a response from any local parish on how to start the process (RCIA).  I was getting frustrated and thought the Church didn’t want me to join.  I am pretty sure it wasn’t the Church trying to keep me away….and I’ve heard the same from others who converted.  When you find the truth, Satan takes notice, and will try to discourage, derail and distract you any way he can.  I’m serious.  I have been a Christian all of my life, and wasn’t nearly as aware of the spiritual battle raging around us until I became Catholic.

    Just forge ahead.  Think of the “process” this way – the Catholic Church takes your conversion VERY seriously.  This is your eternal life.  The process isn’t for the Church’s benefit, it is for ours.

    #22420
    Profile photo of Chance White
    chancew
    Participant
    @chancew

    Thank you both for your responses.  You gave me something to chew on and mull over for sure.

    #22422
    Profile photo of ElizabethK
    elizabethk
    Participant
    @ElizabethK

    I totally get your perspective, but as has already been mentioned, it’s an ancient practice to take time to instruct new people. This *is* very different to praying a prayer and you’re completely in for life.

    But that’s the thing, it’s a long process to ‘become’ Catholic, but it’s an even longer process to walk every day of your life in holiness after you become Catholic, and it’s no bad thing to learn the ‘walk’. It’s not like a sprint, it’s a marathon.

    #22427
    Profile photo of Howard Hampson
    Howard Hampson
    Keymaster
    @Howard the Pilgrim

    I think it is helpful to think of the process of becoming a Catholic as a spiritual formation process, however long or short it happens to be.  I read somewhere that coming into the Church in the early centuries became a three year process.  I don’t have a reference for that, perhaps David, Ken or Jennie can come up with a reference off the tops of their knowledgeable heads.

    Becoming truly Catholic is a paradigm shift from Protestantism or secularism.  It is a different way of spirituality, a different worldview, a different understanding of the nature of the Church and what it means to be a part of that Church.  It is a different way of relating to God.  I have heard people say that Texas is a state of mind, which always makes me laugh.  Well, being Catholic is a state of mind and soul.  It is an identity much more like an ethnicity or a nationality.  It is becoming part of a large, extended family that transcends culture, time and space.  It takes time to become Catholic and the job isn’t finished when you enter the Church but the Church at least wants you to have a good head start on the process.

    Really, we are talking about what Protestants call sanctification and Catholics call conversion, being conformed to the image of Christ.  It is a lifelong process.  And the Catholic Church offers a lot more intentional and helpful way of going about it.  I’ve grown leaps and bounds more in the last 7 years of being a Catholic Christian that I did in the previous 36 years of being an evangelical believer, Bible teacher and lay preacher.  My family will attest to it.  They tell me I am a much better husband, father and now grandfather that I ever was before.  Why?  Because the Catholic Church helped me really become a man of prayer who really communes with God and told me that being a family man is my vocation before God.  And the Church has been teaching me what true sacrificial love is through the Sacraments, the teachings of the Church and the examples of the saints.  And I am learning forbearance, forgiveness, humility, kindness, gentleness and self control.

    So yeah, it’s not easy but nothing good is.

    #22430
    Profile photo of Jennie1964
    Jennie1964
    Keymaster
    @Jennie1964

    I remember the “three years in the early Church” as well in terms of their catechetical rite, Howard, although like you, I cannot remember where I have read that. I think as well, the Church wants us to be deliberate about this being Catholic. It is not like jumping from pool to pool as a Protestant, changing denominations as you change your mind, or your location, or your friends. Once you become Catholic, you are Catholic for life in the Church’s mind and therefore, dare I say, in God’s mind. I knew instinctively what was expected of me IF I became Catholic. I knew that at this point I was playing for keeps in my choice. It is why I studied this faith so deliberately, making sure that I could agree with all of what it said. I think this is why the Church makes us wait things out. It wants our choice to be deliberate and not just some whim of the moment.

    #22431
    Profile photo of David W. Emery
    David W. Emery
    Keymaster
    @David W. Emery

    Some Evangelical denominations have a very short list of doctrine and practice for newcomers. I recently read an account of a certain denomination whose “catechism” is all of two pages long. How many sessions does it take to cover that amount of material? Contrast this with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which in its standard English edition is 900 pages. There is just so much more to Catholicism that an extended period of instruction is absolutely necessary.

    In the time period covered by the book of Acts, the imparting of instruction went from the hearing and receiving of the kerygma, in the form of a lengthy sermon, followed by baptism, to a catechumenate of several months’ duration. The differences in time required seem to be coordinated with whether the Catechumens were of Jewish or pagan background.

    A footnote in Wikipedia on Jewish practice in early Christian times states that Josephus (d. circa 100 A.D.) speaks of a three-year catechumenate, specifying their separation from full-fledged Jews and some details on the curriculum.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia (Link) provides a detailed description of the fourth century Christian catechumenate, mentioning a statutory two years of doctrinal instruction and moral/spiritual formation.

    A Protestant publication (Link to PDF) states on pages 43–44 that the sources mentioning the three-year catechumenate are the Apostolic Tradition 17.1 and the Apostolic Constitutions 8.32.16. Both of these works are also from the fourth century.

    Religious instruction in early Christian times was all done orally. Written catechisms did not exist until mass reproduction of materials became feasible with the invention of the printing press by Johannes Gutenberg around 1439. Individual instruction, following the Catechism of the Council of Trent (also known as the Roman Catechism) or one of the regional catechisms, such as the Penny Catechism in England or the Baltimore Catechism in the U.S., was the norm after the Council of Trent (1545–1563) through to the 20th century. (As a convert myself, I was instructed by a priest over a six month period using the Baltimore Catechism in 1962–63.)

    The Second Vatican Council, at the request of bishops in mission territories, re-instituted the ancient concept of the catechumenate. The standard instruction period then became one to two years for Catechumens (those who are not yet Christians and have not been baptized) and a flexible schedule for Candidates (those who are baptized Christians coming from other Christian entities), based on their knowledge, faith and moral/spiritual formation. Later, a standard curriculum was formed, supported by the release of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) in 1993 (revised edition issued 1997, primarily to include statements by Pope John Paul II on war and execution of criminals). Some national councils of bishops also issued their own catechisms. For example, the United States Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) issued its United States Catholic Catechism for Adults (600 pages) in 2006.

    In the documentation establishing the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), the program for Catechumens is supposed to be separate from the program for Candidates, due to the presumed different levels of knowledge and formation. The problem with the way RCIA is run in most parishes of Europe and North America is that both Catechumens with Candidates are combined into the same class, then everyone is taught on the same ultra-basic level. This has aroused the ire of many former Protestants who desire to become Catholic. They rightly say that they are not starting from square one, and that there ought to be a higher level of teaching and a shorter term of instruction for them. Unfortunately, Catholic parishes typically have neither the volunteer manpower nor the expertise to offer separate and more sophisticated classes for Candidates.

    Enter the Coming Home Network. This apostolate offers material, dialogue and instruction for any stage of inquiry and any level of sophistication. At the top level, it deals with clergy of other faiths and those whose livelihood depends on their institutional affiliation. The CHNI Forum is designed to help anyone who believes he could benefit from dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. It can be seen as a supplement to any RCIA program for anyone who feels he is not getting all he could out of those classes.

    David

    #23053
    Profile photo of joybells
    joybells
    Participant
    @joybells

    Hi This is a very interesting conversation.

    I am a former Protestant Minister who has recently started RCIA classes. I can understand the frustration that can come with the “journey”. I have been attending Mass for almost six months and had been through 6 amazing sessions with a Nun in my Parish and was just about ready to be received into the church when my family and I moved inter-state. I have been attending my local Parish and am enjoying Mass very much. I wrote an email to my Parish Priest explaining a little of my story and asking what the next step would be for me in the new Parish. The response was that I was invited to attend RCIA which would be starting in two months time. My very human reaction was “are you kidding? I have to start all over again!”

    But then I thought about it some more – this Priest does not know me from a bar of soap, I could be anyone telling him anything! By attending RCIA within the Parish I will get to know some other people who are walking the same journey and I would get to know the Father as he conducts the classes and just as importantly Father will get to know me!! This hopefully will also stop me assuming that “I already know it all” because of my religious education. I am very intentionally going with an open mind and heart.

    After reading the above posts it has also made me look back and think about how we as “Protestants” in the denominations that I have been a part of think of conversion. We have people walk into church perhaps for the first time in their lives and they hear the gospel message and they want to respond (Praise God!) So we ask them to come to the front or raise their hand and then we ask them to repeat a prayer after me one line at a time. There is no set form to this prayer, I have heard the most beautiful and meaningful prayers prayed and also very basic prayers that have no depth at all that do not mention sin or repentance or our need of salvation. After the service is over we may have someone talk to them and pray with them and we may take their contact details. What happens after that depends on the church. I have seen great variation in what happens next from fantastic follow up and discipleship – to no contact whatsoever, with no explanation as to what do I do next etc.

    I have decided to enjoy every step on my journey into the Catholic Church and I am like a sponge taking in all the doctrine, teaching and tradition of the church.

    Just my thoughts.

     

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